This post started with a discussion I had with Anthony Louis, who wrote this piece about using multiple house systems. He uses quotes from Masha’allah that refer to houses in two different ways – by whole sign, which were referred to as ‘by counting’, and by a quadrant house system, probably Porphyry according to Anthony Louis, which he referred to as ‘by measurement’, meaning measurement from the two angles, Ascendant and Midheaven.
Quadrant house systems take the Ascendant as the cusp of the first house, and the Midheaven as the cusp of the 10th house. For a long time they have been by far the dominant form of house system at use in Western astrology until fairly recent times. Placidus, Koch, Regiomontanus, Porphyry and many others are all examples of popularly used quadrant house systems. They all agree about the four quadrants of the chart, and each have different methods of dividing up the space between the angles to find the intermediate house cusps.
I have been aware for some time that both kinds of house systems appear in the works of Masha’allah, Sahl, Abu Mashar and other Arabic astrologers. References to both kinds of house systems appear widely in their works including those translated by Ben Dykes, and in a conversation with Ben I confirmed that the two kinds of house systems, by counting and by measurement, are all through their works.
What fell into place for me here, was the notion of using both kinds of house systems at the same time. Prior to this I had thought in terms of these astrologers sometimes using one house system and sometimes the other.
That was the new piece that set me on fire. It helped me realize I have been heading in that direction in my own practice for a long time, without really realizing it.
Prior to this I thought along the same lines as Ben Dykes, Demetra George and other traditional astrologers, that whole sign houses signify topics and quadrant houses signify angularity and relative strength. I do think that relative strength, angularity, is best measured by quardrant house.
What we are doing here is something beyond that, using both house systems for topic symbolism, at the same time.
In our conversation, Anthony Louis also pointed out that there is a clear reference to the use of both house systems together in the works of Morinus, the celebrated French astrologer in the 1600’s who was roughly contemporaneous with William Lilly. Morinus wrote a massive treatise on astrology, Astrologia Gallica, which has had a strong influence since his time.
The reference appears in Book 18 of Astrologia Gallica, On the Strengths of the Planets, a book that was co-translated into English by Anthony Louis. The quote is on page 113 of the English translation.
This is the chart that Morinus is discussing. Note that the chart as Morinus describes it in the text is not exactly what modern software gives, but the critical reference still applies.
Here is the quote.
“Saturn is formally in the 8th house and accidentally in the 9th house, exiled in Leo, a fire sign…Therefore, to the extent the 9th house was affected, it signified unfortunate and deadly long journeys away from his homeland; to the extent that it pertained to the 8th house… it signified a violent death…”
By formally here Morinus means quadrant house; here he is using Regiomontanus. By accidentally here he means by whole sign, counting signs from the Ascendant.
This is not just switching house systems, sometimes using one and sometimes the other. This reference is clearly combining meanings from both house systems at the same time to complement each other – 8th house plus 9th house meaning a violent death during a long journey.
Thus we have support in the tradition for using two different house systems at the same time. Not one or the other. Both at once, even both combined.
This matches my own experience with house systems. I repeatedly find that I need both whole sign and quadrant house systems to adequately explain what I know about the person. I have also found that, the better I know the person, the more likely it is that I need both kinds of house systems. It matches my own chart, and the charts of close friends and family members.
My primary house system has been Whole Sign for several years now. I have also repeatedly had the experience that some charts make a lot more sense in quadrant than they do in whole sign. In my books I go back and forth between the two kinds of house systems in my examples, using sometimes one, sometimes the other, depending on the kind of points I want to make.
I want to look at some examples here of charts that make sense with both kinds of house systems.
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Note that in these examples I am using a chart wheel image from the newly released version 5.1 of the Janus astrology program. These charts show the quadrant houses on the inner wheel, and the whole sign houses on the outer wheel. This makes it very easy to scan both kinds of houses.
I recorded an instructional video on using Janus for traditional predictive astrology, including using the dignities. The video is available on Vimeo at the link given. From now on this is the program that I will be recommending to the students in my classes at Kepler college.
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I first addressed this issue of using multiple house systems in a post from August 2014. The title of that post is, Multi Map Reality. My point there was that my daughter grew up with two sets of parents who had separated, and who had very different views of the world, so that she grew up with two different viewpoints. I think that point is still valid. When I wrote that I had not yet realized that using both house systems like this was generally applicable, and not just a special case for people like my daughter who grew up with multiple ways of looking at the world.
Here is my daughter’s natal chart.
Recapping the main points from that post, the critical feature of the chart is the opposition of Mars/Venus/Sun conjunct in Aries, opposite Jupiter/Saturn conjunct in Libra. The rising sign Scorpio is ruled by Mars, one of the key planets in this configuration.
The opposition falls in the 6th – 12th house axis in whole sign – and my daughter is a nurse, works mainly through hospitals, and has done work in senior care settings.
In Placidus the opposition falls in the 5th – 11th house axis – the 5th house of children and the 11th house of friends and groups of friends – and she is fanatically devoted to her two daughters. Being a mother is the most important part of her life. She is also very dedicated to her friends and family, and she will drive halfway across the American continent to attend a wedding of a college friend she has not seen in over 10 years.
An interesting overlap here, is that the way she cares for her daughters, and the way she cares for her patients, are both expressions of the same kinds of nurturing and caring.
There is another way the dual chart meanings play out that concerns me as her father, and my relationship with her.
This is a night chart, and Saturn in this chart is her father, which is me. Eve is my daughter from my first marriage, and her mother and I separated when Eve was age 2, meaning I was not living with her while she was growing up. Saturn in the 12th house signifies a missing father, or a father who has left.
But Saturn is also in the 11th house by Placidus here.
When Eve was growing up I was a character at our local Renaissance Festival, and for many years my daughter came out to the Festival with me, in costume, and joined me there – doing that Festival with my daughter fits nicely with the opposition along the 5th/12th axis, an axis that has to do with friends, with groups of friends, and with pleasure and entertainment.
So in her chart the two house systems complement each other; each brings out an aspect of her life that the other does not; neither is quite complete in describing her.
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Here is my own birth chart.
Saturn is in the 9th house by quadrant, and the 10th house whole sign. Saturn in the 9th house can be a marking for being a priest, and I spent two years in seminary and was considering formal priesthood – and I still think of my work as astrologer as being a kind of priesthood. Saturn in the 9th can also indicate traditional forms of spirituality – and here I am, a traditional astrologer with an affinity for early philosophical and religious systems like Platonism.
But Saturn is also in the 10th house, and Saturn Libra retrograde well describes bosses and superiors I have had in the business world – severe, rule driven, but also trying to be fair. It also fits that I have always felt blocked and restricted in terms of my professional life.
Combine the two houses, 9th and 10th, spirituality and vocation, and you get a traditional astrologer. Also, in terms of profession, my primary vocation (10th) is teacher (9th).
Mars is in the 10th house by quadrant, and the 11th house by whole sign. Mars on the Midheaven is often considered a marker for a military career – when I was younger I was offered a full scholarship at West Point – a scholarship I turned down, which deeply disappointed my father, who very much wanted to be in the military when he was young, and he was unable be in the army to because of vision problems. Here Mars right on the Midheaven aptly describes my father in that sense.
Mars in the 11th house definitely describes the kinds of friends I gravitate to – severe, outspoken, independent minded, people who think for themselves. Politically and philosophically I have a strong libertarian streak and am drawn to writers and philosophies that emphasize individual freedom, responsibility and self- expression. Also, with the Midheaven in the 11th house, there is a sense in which my vocation is much more about finding my community, people of like mind and like values, than it is about success or power in any professional or worldly sense.
One other example of a useful combining of house meanings – Mercury is in the 3rd house by whole sign, 2nd quadrant. Mercury 2nd/3rd – I accumulate (2nd) lots and lots of books on philosophy and various kinds of alternative spirituality (3rd) – Deb Houlding pointed out that the 9th house signifies the religion in power and the 3rd house is alternate or opposing religions, heresies. That’s me. In addition, Mercury rules the 9th house by whole sign, the house of spirituality and religion. By quadrant, Mercury rules the 8th house related to death, and dealing with death has been a major theme of my religion and philosophy for a very long time.
My lot of Fortune is in the 8th house by quadrant, and a significant progression over the lot coincided with a significant inheritance from a death. Fortune is in the 9th house by whole sign, the house of religion, spirituality, priesthood and such, which is generally applicable to my life.
You get the idea.
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I want to look at one specific configuration in the natal chart of Pope Francis.
Note that there is a Jupiter/Saturn mutual reception, from Capricorn to Pisces, with Jupiter being in fall. Jupiter is 6th house by quadrant, 7th house by whole sign, below the Descendant. Saturn is 8th house by quadrant, 9th house by whole sign. In this case Jupiter, natural significator of the church, is in the 6th house of servants and slaves, and that symbolism has affinity with his conception of the church, and it being in fall and cadent describes its condition.
Saturn, which here also stands for the church as being old and being conservative and law driven, definitely makes sense in the 9th house of religion, and the mutual reception of Jupiter and Saturn 6th to 9th house describes his conception of a servant church – that is Jupiter 6th house by quadrant to Saturn 9th house by whole sign – the symbolism crosses house systems. Also, Saturn in the 8th house does describe its weakened position – the 8th house is considered idle, and planets there are obscured and greatly weakened. Saturn fits in both the 8th and 9th houses at the same time.
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A final note on crossing symbolism – with whole sign, the situation of planets in the first house that are above the Ascendant, fall in the 12th house by quadrant. Those planets share some characteristics of the 2 house systems – these are often aspects of the person’s persona that are obviously visible to people who know them, a first house quality, but the person themself cannot see that quality, it is out of their awareness. This combines the visibility of first house with the hidden quality of twelfth house.
So here is a general case, where a planet above the Ascendant in the first house has both 12th and 1st house qualities at the same time.
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Conclusion
This realization has helped to give a new dimension to my practice, in a way that I find very freeing. Rather than switching back and forth between the two kinds of house systems, or looking sometimes at one and sometimes the other, I am now exploring drawing up all charts with a quadrant house system – currently I favor Porphyry – and allowing myself to combine meanings from the two together.
I would be interested to hear if other astrologers are also using two house systems in this way, and what their experience is like.
This is excellent! As a student, and as someone possessing a 29 degree ascendant, I’ve been confounded by how my chart seems to work in both whole sign and quadrant house systems, despite the entire thing shifting. It’s caused me to question the efficacy of astrology at times, and has led me to some real soul-searching. I’ve been advised to “pick a language,” so to speak, and while it’s perfectly good advice, I simply can’t bring myself to follow it. Your post bolsters me on my journey to working out this dilemma, and it provides me with a broader view that I can incorporate into my studies. Thank you for sharing!
This was a worthwhile contribution and a good read, thank you. I use a quadrant house system, Placidus, for natal, though I keep in mind the whole signs. I was reading for a friend and by antiscion his Saturn is exactly where the 4th house cusp should be. To better explain: his Ascendant falls at 20 degrees of Libra; so ideally, the IC cusp should fall at 20 degrees Capricorn. This would make an exact square. Saturn is at 9.32 Sagittarius, so by antiscion, it is at 20.28 of Capricorn, where the ideal IC should be. So this Saturn is at the root of his being, underneath everything. Interestingly before I read his chart I presumed he would be Melancholic, turns out he is predominately Phlegmatic. So planet placement, bodily or by antiscion (so long at it is within 2 degrees), and where it is in the landscape of the chart, can be revealing.
This is very interesting.My cousin has Scorpio rising and Mars in Leo in 9th by quadrant.He wanted to be a priest.Instead he became manager in Banks and other institutions. But he is quite a moralist.
I have Sun venus and Mars in 8th sign but in 9th by quadrant,jupiter MC but in 9th sign. I`m trouble-prone when travelling,and I teach languages
Does Mars at MC describes your personality or just friends/bosses?
I think Equal Houses — with it’s perfect stakes — is clearly … the most appropriate system to use alongside Whole Signs.
To make a reasonable argument, my good fellow, you would need to explain the logic underlying why Placidus or why Regiomontanus or why Koch (and so on) is actually fitting … to use alongside Whole Signs.
Then, of course, there is that very special region where there is overlap between the two systems — planets there are truly profitable. So as to banish confusion, let us for an example say Mercury is in the 5th by Equal Places AND by Whole Signs. In such an instance, Mercury is functioning most clearly.
Wink.
Valens says that when the Sun and Moon are both below the horizon (at night), the calculation for the Lot of Fortune is reversed. This must be observed.
In the chart of the nurse, the Lot of Fortune is actually in Cancer, which is angular to Aries/Libra. As the life develops, the planets angular to the Lot become emphasized, as the life takes on its own unique shape.
I think it does both.
I like equal houses – if I didn’t use whole sign it would be my preferred system.
I also get useful information from quadrant based systems, where the Midheaven is cusp of the 10th. Of the many being used I prefer Porphyry.
I most certainly have had revelations like this.
Libra is intercepted by my quadrant based house 7 : ruled by Virgo. It contains Venus, Saturn, and Jupiter. If we want to be all modern, it contains Pluto as well.
Mercury, who rules the mutable is in Scorpio ; 8th house according to quadrants. He’s confused.
Anytime I approach a relationship from a fixed point of view : it dies. 7th turns to 8th by whole sign, which is Libra.
I notice whole sign seems to contain a roadmap to a better approach. Quadrant, the idealistic, and potentially unrealistic from which we must compromise.
Hmmm, don’t find it very convincing (sorry Mr. Obert), although I know that Valens also combined (Steven Birchfield once pointed that out to me). The question (#1) for me is whether Mr. Obert’s interpretations as ‘proof’ don’t just follow from planetary locations and the whole signhouse location and domination. In my opinion this can be seen quite clearly in these personal examples. The other question (#2) then always is of course: which cusp system do we take? Because that is so arbitrary that divergent interpretations can always follow, for, where is the cusp, and where does house X, Y, Z start? That makes the delineations fuzzy and how do you confirm them? Robert Schmidt was of the opinion that eventually the equal house system, the ascendant degree in all other signs, indicates the right cusps. I mainly work with that, but only for the determination of strength (sometimes Porphyrius houses, which is actually Valens’ system). See the menu option in the (free!) software called PlanetDance at Ed Greek Horoscope, in the classical menu). And then there’s the MC and the IC. What do they do? What do they indicate? I gave a lecture about this last March, entitled: the difference between the tenth image/sign and the MC.
I totally support the method of combining WSH with Quadrants. But astrology is really complex: so insightful, but at the same time so mind-challenging. Ex. : As i was reading your interpretation of your own chart combining the two house systems, mentally i also began to reading it sidereally instead of tropically and perhaps the life events and personality traits you described fit even more precisely with the first (and oldest) method of dividing the eliptic.
Using this, we would have a Sagittarius rising with Asc. ruler (strongly placed) in his nocturnal domicile (pisces), in the 3rd house(quadrants)/4th house(wsh) (“being a priest, and I spent two years in seminary and was considering formal priesthood – and I still think of my work as astrologer as being a kind of priesthood”), squaring Uranus (in Gemini, in the 6th/7th)(“Politically and philosophically I have a strong libertarian streak and am drawn to writers and philosophies that emphasize individual freedom, responsibility and self- expression”) and opposing Neptune (a spiritual planet) and Saturn (in Virgo, in the 9th house/10th house) (“Saturn in the 9th can also indicate traditional forms of spirituality – and here I am, a traditional astrologer with an affinity for early philosophical and religious systems like Platonism.”).
I would also add: Virgo as 10th sign from the Saggitarius ASC (an intelectual, a writer, a teacher, philosopher, a believer, avid reader, astrologer (mercury ruled astrology traditionally)…) with the 10 wsh ruler (mercury) in pisces in the 3rd house (communication, books, alternative spirituality and beliefs)…
MC in Libra in the 11th wsh (friends/groups) conjunct Mars, with MC/11th wsh rulers, Venus in the 1st (identification with groups/income)/2nd(income) houses and Saturn (libra ruler by exaltation) in the 9th/10th (teaching/philosophy/publishing/astrology and career/public recognition). Also MC ruler (venus) opposing a domiciled Moon in Cancer co-present with Pluto in the 8th sign/house (“dealing with death has been a major theme…”)
Errata: “Also MC ruler (venus) opposing Pluto, co-present with a domiciled Moon in Cancer, in the 8th sign/house (“dealing with death has been a major theme…”)
Thank you. I, like many, am working on synthesizing Modern [Psychological] Astrology with Traditional and this article (and your work in general) goes a long way towards such an end.
I have a 9th House stellium of Sun 24, Mercury 18 and Jupiter 17 in Leo; Venus 11, Pluto 19 and Uranus 22 in Virgo using Placidus. Whole House the Virgo stellium is now in the10 th house. I feel less clogged up in the ninth and have some career direction maybe using the Whole House perspective.
However I still have affinity with my 9th house Placidus stellium as at 52 now
I never have had a ‘career’ just meaningless jobs to pay the rent. Whilst my book shelves grown with 9th house topics.
Thanks Charlie for an inspiring post.
Thank you for this article. I have been feeling indecisive about either using Whole Signs or Porphyry as they both hit different aspects that I know are true as I am 53. For instance, using Whole Signs puts my moon and Jupiter in the 12th which I think relates to being given up at birth for adoption, However, I am a few weeks away from ending a Pluto transit in the 4th house hitting IC, Mercury, Sun and Venus; in this case, Porphyry seems to nail it. There was a huge psychological shift thru surgeries, a nervous breakdown, and then (with Venus) unexpectedly making contact with biological father all when Pluto conjuncted hot points. If it was Whole Signs, then not as much in the 5th house (although none of this except the father was fun).But Whole signs seems to speak accurately to the adoption piece. Anyways, thank you so much for your work here.
This was very helpful. Fairly new to studying charts and looking at my own, Whole shifts 7 of my planets from the Placidus view. I feel both of them to be true, yet the Whole resonates more deeply. I’ve enjoyed this read. Thank you.
onestly, I know I’m not that experienced with astrology yet, but as many astrologers advise I compare different house systems on charts of people I know very well and I Whole Signs doesn’t suit much. I know there’s many things that should be considered but my mum is Leo rising, Sun rules her chart, and in WS it is found in 5th house. She is 60, so it’s easier to say if these house topics were visible or important in her life. And they weren’t. The only thing that could be indicative of that – she has one child. The main focus of her life though was focused on family and home matters in case of taking care of her parents, being very close to her family. She stays very close with them, and puts them above anything else, feeling the need and utter responsibility to take care of them, because she feels like she is obliged or need to. What’s more she was focusing of creating home for my father and then me, and even when my father was abusive, she pushed through wanting the home to stay “normal”. And before they had divorced, she put her effort into keeping the home and family the best she could – worked many jobs etc. After my father, she haven’t had any flings, romances or relationships, as she is wounded in case of sharing her life with partner or in marriage (WS suggested her Chiron on 8th house, which also doesn’t match the meaning). Creativity, fun, and self-expression wasn’t even considered near important in her life, nor she hasn’t found the need to express herself or be artistic. In Equal Houses or Placidus her Sun is on the 4th house, Chiron on 7th. And it does make more sense, does it? It’s not the only example I’ve found reading my close ones charts….
I’ve also found in my chart that placements in Equal seems having more sense than in Whole.
Thanks for this perspective, It really resonated with me deeply. I have always felt that there was a more constructive way of viewing the multiple house system debate among astrologers -and you have put words and explanations to my non verbal intuition of using them as overlaps. Thank you!
As a new student of astrology, I first started with Placidus because most use it.
As I went down the path and collected different styles of astrology, I dug into Hellenistic astrology. As a result, I have been using whole sign houses for some time. My growing interest in evolutionary astrology got me thinking about house systems again. My research brought me here.
Currently I am intensively studying the books of Eric Meyers. The occupation with Evolutionary astrology means also to ask the question about the dispositors anew. For a long time I didn’t attribute any rulership to the transpersonal planets. I like your approach of using both houses as complements. I am trying the same thing with the dispositors. For example, I am using both Jupiter and Neptune as dispositors of Pisces. While Jupiter relates to the Saturnian realm of the relative world, Neptune puts us in touch with the transpersonal world. So we can say that Jupiter gives information about what is happening in the relative world as we experience it as ego / identity. Neptune brings the transpersonal world into Saturn’s realms. Our soul, which is part of the whole, is addressed. Thanks for presenting your own research here!
Please teach me how to combine two house systems in a chart using Janus software.
Take a look at the different wheel styles, and choose one that shows you the signs of the zodiac on a wheel outside the quadrant houses. That lets you see both at once. There are biwheels like that also.